Bartgrinn's voice looks like this.

Nerida's voice is written this way.

Very, very crowded place. It was a kind of a fight to get into the channel here. There were many around who would have loved to give it a try. No match, though. They are around. They are worried about the place. Not many generations after yours will experience this special place.

Unless we change things —

There needs to be change. Won’t be in time to save this place anymore. Even if they would try now. It has progressed too far already.

It’s a place without hills and mountains.

It’s the energy of this place that still keeps it on the surface. It would have gone under, as you would say, quite awhile ago. Wouldn’t take much. This is what this [invisible] crowd around us here is worried about.

Their main concern is that the place will go down under the surface of the water.

The people living here need to find another home. It is not what they want to hear, of course, but they know already. They just can’t bear to think about it.

It’s a place of light energy, easy-going, as you might say. The crowd around us is disappointed and sad because it’s not the fault of the people who live here.

It’s things that take place in other areas, like the one you stayed before [the mining town].

There are plenty of places, plenty, plenty of them. Some of them are as far away as the opposite side of this planet. It’s all affecting this place. So we are glad you came here to witness another thing. We are glad too, that you decided to go to the other island to live, as it is a safer place.

The people here are very religious.

It’s a distraction. They are threatened by what’s going to happen to them, they are frightened of their future. They don’t know when it’s gonna happen, but they know it will. Prayers keep them entangled in other thoughts, so they can worry about other things, so to say. Yes, the usual thing that religion does. People tend to learn towards it if there is a major problem ahead, that they don’t want to think or talk about: distraction.

Tell me a little about distraction.

There are different sorts of distraction. Some of them, like music, are a good source to keep your energy to yourself, re-collect it and bundle it again, if it went astray with your other thoughts.

So religion is something that some people find, because it is a distraction, they find it easier to think about these things, to think just in this one direction.

Leave the other threat, fright or thought just by itself for awhile, so they can concentrate their energy to take care of their original problem or thought.

It’s about having a detour around it that saves you some energy, so you can approach the other problem from a different angle, with restored energy.

Music as a blissful distraction. Pic by  Hatim Belyamani

Music as a blissful distraction. Pic by Hatim Belyamani

That’s all it does. Which can be quite a lot at times.

But, as I said, it doesn’t have to be religion. It can be music. Or other light entertainment sources. It can be a conversation with a nice person — interesting, different thoughts. Or it can be intimate exchange — that would do as well.

People who are religious wouldn’t like this kind of thought, that it’s actually the same. But that’s how it is.

There are lots of animals around on this island. Someone told me that animals' energy gets blended with ours when we eat their bodies.

I wouldn’t say ‘blended’. I would use ‘added’.

Okay, because the animal’s spirit has passed.

Yes. It can be the same thing. Blending would mean intermingled, totally. And it’s more like ‘added’ — more like: in the outer shell.

The outer shell of spirit. The spirit doesn’t have a surface, but if it would have one, that’s where it would go. If you see it as a ball of energy, it wouldn’t be like in the nucleus of that ball, it would be more in the surroundings.

M’Hoq Toq told me about a place called Lemuria. There’s mention of it in the Seth writings. It’s said there were such empathic and kind people that they almost couldn’t exist. I heard that even turning of the earth was violence to them.

[After a pause] It was a different turning of the earth.

So not in the sense of gardening? Are we talking about something like mining?

Something that takes substantial parts out of the planet: moving it somewhere else, disturbing the balance.

If you have something like a ball — you take something out of here, you put it over there — it’s not round again. [He gestures to describe the shapes using Marie’s hands]

That would be the easiest way to describe it. It starts having a different movement. [He uses the hands to show the previously turning ball moving erratically]

It changes the whole energy, sometimes in a bad way. Most of the time.

You have to pay attention to what you take out, how much you take out and where you are going to put it. And how you are going to replace it with something different that matches the place.

Because otherwise it’s going to spin out of control. It’s like, what you call a day, for example — given that you use ‘time’ — it’s not the same amount of time in day as it was before.

The imbalance changes the direction, the speed and the angle.

So your idea of time is not a good one, especially with these big changes they are making. They have this measurement. It doesn’t match the environment anymore.

They would need, if they would like to measure it, they would need to adapt it, the time.

That’s why many experiments don’t work. Well, it’s like “Oh, and then you have to spin it around,” or bury it, or whatever they’ve done in that experiment for, let’s say 50 or a hundred years.

The experiment will not work in the end. It could need a shorter time frame.

Or say, you have a recipe for something: it needs to be cooked for 1 hour. It’s not going to turn out so well. Because it would have been 1 hour at the time this recipe was created, maybe 50 years ago, maybe one hundred years ago. It’s not an hour anymore. It’s not the same hour it was back then. But that’s difficult to understand if you use time as a measurement.

An hour is no longer an hour. Pic by  Sven Van Der Pluije

An hour is no longer an hour. Pic by Sven Van Der Pluije

What you call time is not a fixed measurement and it doesn’t happen on one level. It happens in, you know, about three dimensions.

Some talk about four dimensions—it’s actually more than that.

So it can’t work: if they use it in science, the thing they call time, many things are not possible because the measurement is wrong.

It doesn’t match the original thought of someone like Albert anymore.

Because time has passed, the thing that you call time. It worked back then, it won’t work now.

You have to make adjustments on more than one level. That’s one of the problems about space travel.

We are happy you’re not able to do space travel the way you want. You’re not qualified enough. You’re not educated enough. It’s like, you have to use this cluster of cells you’re in right now and even if some spirits can think in a different way, they’re still limited by this cluster of cells that they live in now.

I think your leading population, the ruling class, would not like to be referred to as a cluster of cells, but that’s what they are.

If time's not what we think it is, are past and future lives actually lived simultaneously?

Not — I have to use this word again — not all the time.

Not all, what you call, lifetimes are simultaneous.

Some of them happen parallel.

Some of them are, what you would call, past. These are the ones where, you would say, the file has been closed.

If there are some things that are still needing some work done, these are the ones that go parallel.

‘Parallel’ is not a good word to use because it would mean same level, just next to it. It’s more dimensional than that.

It’s the space you’re in — it doesn’t mean the other life is right next to the current life. So parallel would be the wrong term to use. But I know it’s referred to as ‘parallel’ lives. [He shows lines running parallel to each other with the hands]

The term, as you know it, as you learned it when you were kids at school, it’s wrong.

It implies the lives don’t meet.

Oh, but they do! If you are in the life you’re in (I have to use that word again) at that time or moment and there is not much to learn to do, to grow energy in this certain time-frame, you can do some necessary work to learn and grow in an another life.

So that’s how you can ‘switch’.

If I learn and grow my energy in this lifetime and there are other lifetimes that need it, those other lifetimes will benefit, too?

Yes, except the ones where the file has closed — it’s served its purpose, you’ve done what you had to do, let go.

So, for example, my Lemurian and Atlantean lifetimes are closed, I think.

One of them.

Ok, still working on the Lemurian one, huh?


So that lifetime influences my growth in this lifetime — what I perceive as this lifetime — and vice versa.

You know this spot here? This island you’re sitting on at the moment, this could be considered part of Lemuria.

There are a few tiny bits around, some bigger parts, but it’s hidden. Hidden under the surface. You shouldn’t get the wrong idea, that you can bring it back to the surface by doing things like mining. It’s not gonna work.

And that wasn’t the idea that the people had who started mining, anyway.

This mining is fueled by greed. Greed only, nothing else. Little clusters of cells having funny ideas of changing a whole planet. Imagine if another cluster of cells that you call an animal, would do something like this.

They would think they are so superior they have to shoot these animals.

So, you are watched. You are watched. And if it goes too far, someone is going to intervene.
There is something like greed in other parts of the universe as well.

As you know, some have lifetimes, (I don’t like this word), have lifetimes on other planets and some people make the same mistakes over and over again, no matter what kind of appearance they have or where they are.

Yes, you referred to it as humans or people and it’s cell clusters.

They will stop having other lives, they will stop having other appearances in any form or place. The file gets closed at some stage because they don’t have the ability to grow wisdom and energy. They had several attempts at it: didn’t work. They are not evolved enough.

When you say they’ve had several attempts —

Getting rid of the greed, trying to have an appearance on a planet, or within a rock or as a cell cluster and try to live without the greed, growing some other qualities.

They come back to experience, learn and grow energy, to get over what they have been concentrating on, which was greed. And then they come, they have a try, doesn’t work.

So they go back to what they think they know best. And then they do it again and again and again. Because they don’t fight obstacles. They don’t try to overcome things with different thoughts.

Or by getting different knowledge, which would mean they grow their wisdom and their energy as well — they just go where there is less resistance and then they use what they think they know. And because they know it so well they think it’s good.

That’s how it happens.

I understand this. You know, in the Michael Teachings there’s this expression called overleaves.

The idea is that there are a couple of negative qualities that we have in each lifetime that we struggle with and that we need to grow out of.

I’ve been told that my overleaves in this lifetime are greed and impatience, qualities these dangerous people in the ruling class share in great measure.

You could have been a great example in the ruling class. But you have something they wouldn’t call overleaves, which is laziness.

[Laughing] Is that why I didn’t end up in the ruling class?

Well, it was a blessing that your laziness stopped you from going there, because otherwise you wouldn’t have had a chance to try to overcome impatience and greed. So now you can work on it. If you were on that level, you’d be lost already.

Mmm, I understand. There are other overleaves talked about in the Michael teachings, but greed seems to be the one that really is bringing this planet to a crisis.

You have these periods where it’s easy to get through things with greed and impatience, so you grow more of that, but it doesn’t give you more energy. It gives you more knowledge about greed, which is not compatible with growing more energy.

Of course you have to learn something about greed, because it’s part of every spirit.

But if you tend to have things that all go in one direction, you won’t grow that much energy, because your knowledge is not balanced.

In some periods it’s easier to grow one aspect of knowledge, like greed. And then, the same ones tend to come back and use what they know best.

There are other times in between, where other ones come back. They came from a different period, when it wasn’t so easy to get through a lifetime with greed, because there wasn’t anything to be greedy about.

Because of them, there’s not much greed around for a while. But then these other greedy ones come back and they go on the same path again.

They don’t grow much, because they tend to go on the same path again.

Gaining knowledge is worthwhile, a good thing to do. You grow energy by doing so. But it needs to be balanced, otherwise it won’t give you as much energy.

And it doesn’t give All That Is as much energy.


Shopping Mall under construction Jakarta, Indonesia. Pic by  Jonathan McIntosh

Shopping Mall under construction Jakarta, Indonesia. Pic by Jonathan McIntosh

Somebody’s who’s living a lifestyle at this time where they think only about what they can consume, what they buy, what they can get, all their life: that’s a lifetime where there’s been very little expansion of energy.

Their only thought is, “How can I get more of the same?” More of the same means things to play around with.

It’s a dead end; if you try to get more of the same and keep it to yourself or the ones that are like you, it defeats the purpose.

If you are greedy, you might get more and more of it for you and your friends that are doing the same, but you don’t grow energy and you don’t grow wisdom either, which is what it’s all about: growing energy by expanding your wisdom and knowledge. Learning, learning.

They don’t do it. They just stay on the same track. So they don’t grow energy, they don’t expand wisdom. You could call them idiots.

[Laughs] And we will.

You have to use the language and terms that these clusters of cells understand. They won’t be delighted though.

I find you delightful.

Sometimes you need to have easily understandable examples. We are trying to make the ones that are not so bright in the first place understand what it is all about.

So those souls who are exploring, what the Michael Teachings call the positive pole of greed, which is generosity, are those who are using the materials available to share, to enrich those that need enrichment, to look after those and care for those that need help to grow —

Yes, these actions are not meant to feed to the others’ greed.

If you have a kind of, you wouldn’t call it greed then, if you have these clusters of cells, you know, trying to get or grow more food, for example, or provide more water to give it to the ones that don’t have it. This is the kind of ‘greed’ (a different kind of greed) that grows energy as well, because you have learned.

You use something that you’ve learned and that you know well to expand other souls' energies. That’s the kind of ‘greed’ that would gain energy and wisdom.

In contrast, take mining. They take something out of the planet, from one side, they send it to another side.

They send it there because these ones think: We need more and more and more and more houses. The houses are only affordable for the same group of people they belong to.

They don’t think about the other ones that need to grow their energy. They will feed the greed of the other ones. It’s a bad cycle.

If they would use what they do to produce something to help this planet overcome problems, to help this planet and the humans and animals on it by changing things, changing the environment in a better way — keep it cleaner, try to get technology that’s far beyond what they have at the moment...

There are other ways, there are other things around. It would be easy to get into.

And, (one of us has mentioned before), the key might even be a child. A child finding out about the newest source of energy, that’s clean and affordable for the ones that don’t go for the greed. This child could do this because they have been there, they’ve learned.

A child may have the answer to the World's best new source of energy. Pic by  Zara Walker

A child may have the answer to the World's best new source of energy. Pic by Zara Walker

They want to learn, to grow knowledge and energy by doing something else.

They are not concentrating on following that familiar path to get more and more and more of the same thing, because they know it won’t take them anywhere.

At some stage, you leave this cluster of cells. The spirit and the energy is what’s left. The spirit and your energy decide where to go next, what to do, what to learn or what to create.

That’s what it’s all about.

You don’t take the ‘more of the same thing’ with you. But if you come back on this planet, you have to handle and deal with the things that have been destroyed. The things that are not there anymore. You have to conquer the imbalance that you’ve caused in the first place.

This happened before.

Is one of the reasons Marie and I are attracted to living in the Indian Ocean that we want to try to balance energy there, having witnessed, in other lives, the collapse of the continent of Lemuria?

It’s not completely collapsed. It’s still around. It’s hidden. If the next ‘disaster’ is coming, which continent is under the sea it might just be swapped around.

Mmm. I know that Aedgar and yourself are involved in balancing energy in the universe, including trying to balance energy on this planet, of which we are very fond.

But this planet is just a tiny part of the universe.

The work that you do in coming to talk to us — trying to express your knowledge and expand our knowledge and wisdom — is that related to a shift of energy that will hopefully change this planet for the better?

As we say, there is always hope, otherwise we wouldn’t come. But there are different levels of hope.

Uhuh. And there’s no hope for this little island that we’re on?


It’s very sad isn’t?

Yeah. If you go round this place, you will see the signs of the water rising everywhere and it’s not a temporary thing. It has been going on for quite awhile.

And the latest actions of the greedy folk didn’t help. It has sped it up, which is another term of time again, but what to do? That’s all your place is based upon. All the thoughts go around ‘time’.

We are participating in a moment on a beautiful coral atoll, which, when you see the whole moment, as you do, is also under the sea, as a consequence of humankind’s foolishness and greed.

Yes. It came from under the sea. It was growing out of the sea and it’s going back into the sea.

It could have grown much bigger and it could have stayed. Now it’s just going back where it came from, so to say.

You know I’ve been thinking about material reality as a construction of ideas. This idea was in Seth’s book that I’m reading at the moment.

Witness and observe what’s around you.

It is good to study from books. Don’t overdo it.

There are ideas in these books. There are the right thoughts in these books.

But we can offer a different perspective from that. Every one of us has the same basic idea, but a different perspective of it.

Don’t get too entangled in one kind of an idea. Keep your mind open. This is the way to gain knowledge and wisdom — resulting in growing energy: keeping the mind open. Balance things.

Seth has done wonderful work. He has done his part. Seth will come back, at some stage, with different ideas. That’s what we do, because we, as well, grow energy or add it to someone else’s energy, to some different spirit. Growing knowledge.

So Seth put the right things out there at the time. He’s gaining some more knowledge now.

He will come back, not as Seth, of course. But he will come back, with additional knowledge.

All of us have different knowledge. All of us approach a different group of people.

Because we all need the ones that understand, that do something, that start to think differently; that will learn, grow wisdom and expand energy, to help the whole planet.

And beyond.

Yes. So all these different groups are going to work together, from different angles, on the same thing.

This is how it’s supposed to work. So Seth is not for everyone. Abraham is not for everyone. Veronica isn’t for everyone. And I’m not for everyone either.

So’s Aedgar. Or M’hoq Toq or Isis. They are all on a different approach to different groups, to like-minded spirits. Spirits don’t have a mind, but you know what I mean.

I appreciate that.

You’re welcome.

What a noisy place, again.

We’re always in noisy places. What do you notice?

Some humming noise. It’s a humming noise on more than one level, coming from there and there.

There’s a fridge behind you to keep the food cold so it keeps longer. And over there is a kind of a factory to clean the water.

The best thing would have been not to get the water dirty in the first place. And then you wouldn’t need noisy machines.

And if you had fresh food available easily you wouldn’t need a machine to keep the food fresh. You’d just go and get it.

You go and get it, when you need it. And you don’t get more than you need, because that would be greed again. Except, you get it for someone who’s not able to get it.

Working here as a doctor, I’ve been thinking about how sickness or injury sometimes help us grow.

Sickness is there to grow, it is a mechanism to change things in the body. It’s like a new start or a re-start in some places.

You get, not a blank, but a different canvas, after it.

Accidents are there to teach you to be more careful. Some of them don’t leave you with a blank canvas. Sometimes, an accident leaves you with a totally blank canvas—which is not appreciated by most, because it’s a sudden impact. And sometimes it wasn’t a wise decision in the first place.

To go that way?

Yes. Some injuries serve to slow the body down, specially if it’s moving into the wrong direction.

An injury makes you stop, have a break, think, learn some other skills, grow your wisdom and energy in a different way. It’s like little pushes in a slightly different direction. Sometimes in a totally different direction. It happens.

So these things will always be part of life on Earth?

There was a time when it wasn’t. We are working towards a time when we can recreate that.

Spending time or a period or a moment to grow wisdom and energy, without suffering.
Suffering gives you a shortcut, in some ways. You learn quicker, you tend to learn quicker.

As I said before, there are always the ones that won’t learn at all. So it doesn’t matter how quick or how bad an experience is, they don’t learn from it. But it tends to give a quicker learning experience.

I had harder times in my youth. I did tend to overdramatise a bit. But, I wanted to learn. I wanted to be unafraid of poverty, unafraid of illness. I think sometimes some older souls have some insight.

Sometimes. This insight usually comes late within a lifetime. So you might have some ideas, my dear, but you’re quite a bit away from insight. Because you still have some time to go.

[Laughing] I’m grateful for that. The adventure continues.

Indeed. I might leave you for now, my dear.

Thank you so much for coming.

You are very welcome. Talk to you another time.